How AI Is Changing The Sales & Marketing Game At MaxSold With Sushee Perumal And Nick Cavuoto
With the way technology advances, it’s no surprise that we’re seeing AI changing the sales and marketing game. Sushee Perumal, the CEO of MaxSold, and Nick Cavuoto, the CMO of ScaleX, join this episode to discuss those changes. Learn the drastic difference when it comes to managing leads between the traditional method and the process assisted by AI. They also talk about the different effects, applications, and implications that AI can have in sales. Listen in and know how it’s possible to retain and amplify the human connection in sales and marketing while being fully powered by AI. They emphasize that this is the path that the entire world is steering into and explain why the sales and marketing industry has to follow the same thread.
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How AI Is Changing The Sales & Marketing Game At MaxSold With Sushee Perumal And Nick Cavuoto
I've got two guests with me. I hope that's okay for The Sales Experts Channel and the C-Suite podcast. I have very important people here with me. Sushee Perumal is the CEO of MaxSold. I found out that he's been there for many years. It's one of the fastest growing startups that's around and what an amazing company. We're going to dig into this. I've got Nick Cavuoto. He joined ScaleX as the Chief Marketing Officer. We've got a combination of sales experts and marketing experts here. We're going to bring it all together and talk about how does marketing play with sales with the AI thread down the middle. Sushee and Nick, welcome.
Let's start. MaxSold, it was years ago at B2B AmEx. Often, I speak at these events, but this time I was an attendee because it's a marketing led conference and usually, I'm at all the sales conferences and not the marketing conferences. I thought, “I better go see what's going on the other side of the fence here.” I go to Scottsdale, Arizona. I remember I went into their web app and I looked through a bunch of the attendees. I said, “Who would be interesting people to meet?” It turned out 80% of the people were interesting people to meet.
I started copying and pasting a message saying, “If you'd like to meet while you're here, I've got some books, Sales Hack. I'd love to meet with you for ten minutes.” Sushee was one of the takers. We met and hit it off and found out that Sushee is far advanced on all things in sales and marketing. That's where it started. Since then, Sushee is implemented almost every AI for sales technology that I come up with. It's definitely a connection is unstable. I'm glad to be back. You're amazing. You've implemented almost every single AI for sales.
You were a 100% unusual person at that conference because I was with Alex, a colleague and we were trying to crack this nut on full domination. We were saying, “We have created a bottleneck here. We are generating leads, left, right and center and we don't have enough salespeople to put on this problem.” That's when your message popped up saying AI For Sales. I'm like, “We live in an era that's AI powered, that has potential with technology. Why don't we apply it to sales?” That's how you caught my attention to chat and how we connected. Since then, it's a different world we live in.
Let's rewind the tape. It started with you're putting money to work on Facebook and different ad sources. You've got a chatbot on your website and you're generating more lead volume than you could handle. The first thing that we implemented together was agent assisted dialing, which is a form of AI augmentation to enable a salesperson to have 10 to 20 times more conversations per day than they would otherwise. How did you find that enabled your team to have more conversations and convert at a higher level? What was the end result of that implementation?
I had created all these beautiful graphs. I don't think I've shared some of them with you. What it did is it created a sales flow discipline where you can’t avoid talking to people. If you pick up the phone, it's going to give you conversations one after the other. That is extremely unusual for a salesperson to experience and if there any inefficiencies or reluctance to speak to people, you find out within an hour, you burned that person out because they are not ready for this job and in sales. They are not hiding behind the phone, dials and all of these fake metrics that don't result in conversations that lead to sales. When you ordered to try to uncover weaknesses, you'd want to double the inputs or 10x times inputs, if you're brave. What then happens is it exposes a bunch of things that are bottlenecks in your process and fluent for us, it happened to be exposed to massive weakness in our ability to handle the leads that were coming in and we were able to resolve that with ScaleX.
That was part one. Lead flow, how do we call the leads quickly and frequently to convert at a higher level. Part two was, now that we've done some inbound lead follow-up more effectively, let's go for the partner channel. The next thing is that when we launched that calling into partners, traditionally MaxSold would say, “If you guys can bring a couple of customers our way, that'd be great.” There were no contractual terms to a commitment of any sort. When we started going at scale there, we discovered, “What if we put a one pager that maybe it doesn't commit them to ten moves a month, but it limits them to, we think we can bring ten moves a month to MaxSold.” How did that process workout? Did we get that bottleneck removed?
We did. If anybody has a hesitation to sign a soft commitment, that all it is like an agreement, a handshake, that makes sure that there is some engagement or commitment so that the salesperson isn't hiding behind, “I've got these incredible conversations like money is going to start to flow.” We're like, “Where's the proof?” That helped, written down if anybody asks.
You then move to the CSM. What you’re doing is pushing the sale a little further downstream now, the CSM has to say, “You didn't sign anything. Are you going to do the moves through us?” If you have that piece of paper that says, “I'm pretty sure I can get in.” Therefore, when you do get to ten, you'll get X percent discount or other value add by being part of the VIP product.
We are in the process of signing $1 million soft commitment and that should be a $4 million deal, but let's say for $1 million. That's when you uncover some of the hidden objections as well. They're like, “How does this work? How does that work? What are the steps we can do? What's the buy in we need?” It also helps with that regard. We're not asking them to put money down. All we are saying is here is, “Here's what we're going to give to you, a break on the commissions, some extra things that you would value that doesn't cost much to us. We need something” “Sounds good, send me some information,” which salespeople love to hear.
When Nick joined the business and said, “I'm going to need about $3,000 a month in paid ad spend,” I didn't sign a contract that says that, but it's documented in our process. Without that, Nick loses his superpower. It's a similar thing. He had me sign a soft commit and now at least it's in my line item and in my budget to do it versus, “Send me the brochure.”
It is a good concept because 9 out of 10 times, we don't listen to what's being said, we interpret things a different way. That's why when you go into hostage negotiations, not that I've ever been in one, up to five people whose sole job is to listen, read between the lines, come up, look at the tone of voice, inflections, and body language because we all have these internal conversations that go on as we are hearing and speaking. It's completely novel for us not being good listeners and we have ways to overcome it and our good tool is a soft commitment.
Nick is one of those guys. He's 1 of 5 hostage negotiator, listening to this conversation. I'm going to tee up a lot of ball that Nick can jump in on. You both have spent considerable amounts of time, money, resource, and expertise in Facebook Ads, LinkedIn Ads, other ad sources to where I've spent this much time. I have to believe that both of you have experienced a situation where you put money in and then the downstream effect of that money, you can see leakage. I can imagine a big pipeline with a lot of water going through it and then, “We sprung a leak and another leak.” What's the pain and emotion of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on paid ads and then handing it off to a team that lets the water leak out of the pipeline?
It’s painful. This is why I couldn't be a CMO or VP to be a digital marketer or responsible solely for inbound, because it's extremely painful to see the leads being handed over. You had this diagram in your book like, “The salespeople are expecting leads to be handed to them in a silver platter that's ready to convert.” Silver platter ready to convert and those leads are as rare as unicorns. Nobody's going to say, “Send me contract. I'm going to sign it. Let's jump into business. Tell me about to transfer the money over.” That's the case for even referral leads, which are the most ready to convert leads, but when you’re getting them from these digital channels, there's a fair bit of work involved on the sales side to be able to do things to nurture them, to uncover objections and to get them to a fail thready state. The leakages things that need to get fixed, it's an ongoing process.
Nick, you've worked for Fortune 500 companies as well as startup funded technology companies. Have you experienced a similar situation? What's the experience been to you?
Everything under the sun and it’s 1,000%. When we extract back to human behavior and if you're part of a team, a marriage, a relationship, a partnership, everybody has to bring their A-game. Everybody's got to bring 100%. To collapse the invisible line between sales and marketing and to have a partnership and not a sibling rivalry, we've got to look at this and in finding agreement. This is why when I was trained through HubSpot in early days, and then ended up working with one of their executives in a startup in Boston.
It’s tried and true inside of that system and their methodology. One of the big ideas is around creating an SLA, having any Service Level Agreement between sales and marketing that defines when the baton gets handed off. When I was in Fortune 500, I was working for 1 of the top 2 companies, as far as for payroll and HR services in the US, paying 1 out of every 10 private sector employees, managing over $1 billion in business as far as on the product level. I remember going to the SVP of marketing when I was getting a lot of flak from the marketing team, we were getting them incredible leads and we were getting them pre-qualified through one of our paper lead vendors. They got used to that on tap.
They get these leads 125 or so a month for each individual team, but they were ready to convert and they would convert quick. I had a lot of automations and things set up behind the scenes to deliver those leads quickly. That was the cream of the crop. That was the high level of those. I ended up exposing $25 million of open leads, meaning they were never changed in status and lead stage. I was loved and hated in that organization dependent on who you talk to because I exposed what was needed, which was accountability. It's true in life.
I think that business is a direct mirror to life in many ways that where we have blind spots or where we don't spot check or what goes inspected is typically of where you're going to find those areas of opportunity. Sales and marketing talking about rivalry, it got serious at that point because we were getting toasted inside of sales meetings with high level, C-level executives of multibillion-dollar businesses going like, “We need more leads.” As soon as that happened, the tide shift. It was like a sail on a sailboat within the opposite way, with a big strong pole back to accountability.
Here's the result of that. I was able to take three sales organizations that were about half to their performing goals, to double what they were expected to create by exposing that gap and exposing partnership versus creating more problems. In that scenario, all those teams excelled and we were able to get back on track, but it required a service level agreement. It required to deal with what was and required a massive amount of accountability on both sides. That was a huge game changer. I've gone from spending $100 a day in ads to over $3 million a month an ads. The situation is always the same and that's exactly where we landed. We countability service level agreements and having good processes on that. Claiming process before people.
The dormant leads. We wrote a blog about many years ago, me and Chris Beall, the CEO of ConnectAndSell. It was The Pile of Unmatched Socks. That was about the time we did a partnership with Infusionsoft because they had a large heap of pile of unmatched socks. They were spending money with an outsource telesales company that used traditional means to call those leads. You can only have capacity of 30, 40 or 50 dials a day and maybe an email blast to 30, 40 or 50 people a day. They had to hire 50 of these outsourced people. We came in and said, “What if we could do 1,000 dials a day per BDR and touch all those unmatched leads on a much more frequent basis and therefore convert at a level that you've never seen before? We'll zip these unmatched socks around. Get them to the right place and either confirm or deny. I want a 0 or 1. I don't want something in the middle.”
Let's get rid of the maybes. Now, let's pivot. We've talked about phone and voice as a way to better convert these unmatched socks. About maybe six months in to the deployment with MaxSold, we brought a technology that allowed you to automate the process of responding to the leads. We call them a zero-minute Email. The lead comes in, you got to email them immediately from the salesperson, not just a marketing message, but a sales message and then stay there overtime where other vendors may go away and then you forget about them. By the way, if we could have AI power, the communication track between the lead and MaxSold, nobody calls in sick, there's no such thing as normally because they're being touched frequently by email and by phone. You were one of our early customers on the AI platform for email. What have you learned since deploying that technology?
We learn the same lessons as we did with the dials, Chad. Couple of things one, it gets our volumes at a significant higher number and we have overseen before. With the traditional marketing campaigns or emails, it's a slow and painful process because you could have SDRs and BDRs all day long, but commerce out emails one at a time and what's the value add in that. We can introduce a piece of technology that can go from 0 to 100. That's what this new scale like email technology enabled for us. We were able to do outreach, not only to our inbounds, but also to our partner groups in a much more efficient and scalable way as it's never been done before.
I remember when you first turned the AI for email on, it’s out of this Earth in terms of the conversion rate to meeting rate, that when our operations team met with you, we were like, “Do you remember what the meet? It was like 1,000 leads and there was open rate that was off the chance.”
At meeting rates and that's the unmatched socks. We had a whole bunch of partners in our system that it's not like they were not nurtured, but they were nurtured from a marketing perspective, not from a sales perspective. That's something no one said that took me a while to get. When you nurture them from a sales perspective, it's a real human that's reaching out to them. The human happens to be AI. It was doing the same thing as a human would, except we increase the efficiency tenfold. We were able to get to these unmatched socks through email and gave it the ability to set up to book appointments, but zero touches, whereas it would have taken a fair amount of the resources to achieve the same, but then a whole lot less efficiency. In fact, we had reasons to solve it, but we still had a pile of unmatched socks.
What I can do is that, why don’t I log into the backend of the platform and let me go see if I can find the number? While I'm doing that, what's next? Where do you see the future of sales and marketing coming together and blurring that line? You own sales marketing as the CEO. There's this CRO role that owns both of it. At what point do you think the CRO becomes important or does the CEO own that sales and marketing?
The CEO has growth responsibilities. Responsibility for top line growth. The importance of the growth, I been leading it and I am looking for someone like Nick who can take over that responsibility so that it could be a more out on the golf course and do the things that CEOs do, which I still need to figure out. Maybe be in a plane visiting you, talking about strategy and world domination, and figuring out a way to support the team, to do the things which will make sure that I can start working on things that need a 5 or 10-year horizon as supposed to the quarterly and annual horizon.
After Nick gets our company stood up to a level that's acceptable, we do plan to roll out a marketing agency side. Rather than just offering the sales apparatus, we will be coming to market probably within 90 days or so with the full solution that says, “Let us drive leads for you on the frontend, and then make sure that those leads are followed up in a timely manner and convert at the highest possible level and the lowest possible cost.” You may have to give us a quarter before that occurs. Nick, what questions do you have as someone who's joined the company and you're seeing the products pulled together? Could you share part of your vision because the next generation of where ScaleX goes is think about the dials, emailing, digital ads and we recorded voicemails, what if you could have the rep prerecord, a voicemail as part of the cadence?
Think about it, they've clicked on something on Facebook and now an email goes out to them and instead of a rep having to call them three times in that first day, or maybe they do that too, they try to randomly get them, but what if you could also drop a voicemail? “This is Chad with ScaleX, I'm your account manager with MaxSold. Your business is important to us and with everything going on in the world. I'm excited to talk with you about how we can help you move your precious goods and help you with your move. You can reach me by cell phone because your business is important to me. My phone number is (415) 994-6396. Have an amazing day.” What if you could automate the voice drop with the emotion from a human perspective powered by AI? How would that change the workflow?
Sushee, you should answer that one quickly and then I'll jump into it. How would that change the game for you?
It's the multichannel approach work extremely well. We know the open rates these days aren't that high. At best what they are at 50%, 60% or 70%. This is for an opt in. If somebody says, “Contact me,” we send them an autoresponder. The open rates even for those aren't that high, how else can we get in touch with them? We can try to get them on the phone. Even the answer rate isn't that high for those either. How many dollars does it take to get a hold of a person who gave you the number on the website? That's also low.
The third thing we do is we send them a text message saying that, “We try to email you. We try to phone you. What's up? Here’s our direct number. Get in touch with Nick. Here's my direct line.” The fourth option would completely change the game if we were to add the voicemail drop to the mix. If we did a direct mail to that mix, as well saying, “We know where you live because we have your phone number, we have your email address, we have everything. We are going to send you one of Chad’s books in the mail.” It's a good multitouch approach that we know it works, we've seen it work. Even if we can improve the conversion rate like 1%, 2% or 3%, it's incremental improvement, that's going to compound over the years.
Where the market is going if I look forward in 2020, 2021, 2022 and start projecting, it is the amplification of human touch without having human touch. AI having the ability to contextualize humanity without the push or pull from a human is an interesting concept that is not going anywhere. You can follow any of the technology experts. I like following Elon because he has the most incredible mind in the way that he thinks and also the delivery pattern is slow and methodical. He takes his time in explaining these processes and how they function without any skin in the game because he's the one doing it on many different levels.
He's not concerned about the next person. He gives some waves, quite a bit of his IP, which is also interesting. When I look at this at the highest level, I think human connection is the thing that will supersede everything. Yet, at the same time, it's like we're in the 1950s, with the 2050 world as far as technology. It's the convergence of the two. It's not either/or, it's both and. It's high touch on the technology side, but there's also high empathy and emotion on the human side. That's the line that has to be collapsed in a sales and marketing organization is everything beneath the surface emotionally within psychology, the tips, tricks, hacks and the ways to get underneath the surface is powerful.
Focusing on humanity, powered by AI is the way I think the entire world is going to function. Sales and marketing have to fall the same thread. What my goal with ScaleX is to collapse the invisible line as fast as possible to remove it from a sibling rivalry to operating as two arms part of one body. When that can happen successfully, it removes the politics and the bureaucracy out of organizations and allows the work to get done. Companies that adapt the quickest win. Those who see this and who understand it and who are willing to invest in it are going to have a way higher level of success and their success rate will be that much better. Those incremental wins will come quicker versus being late adopters and waiting until the world adapts.
The last part in what you said, doing these, getting on to these tools and technologies early in the game, give you a competitive advantage of having been there, walked us back. Even if you have competitors coming on, you know way more about how to apply this to your business and how to scale it before anybody else comes on. That's the magic behind it as being an early adopter has huge advantages because you're following problems that people live in and haven't have thought about when trying to implement these things and trying to figure out how to make this work.
You've lived in the technology for a while. Sushee, this was when we launched June 9th through June 16th of 2019 and in the first month, 1,872 people were approached. What is engaged and assigned mean? Is that good or bad? What are those numbers mean to you?
These are outstanding. Engaged as if they have their reply to an email, if they ask the question, if they clicked on a link, that signals interest, it's not open rates and assigned to a sales rep. These are upstanding numbers. Other than the cost of the technology, we know how many sales reps would it have taken to create 164 appointments.
That's where this ROI quadrant is interesting because it's based on the normal time to write an email. If you were to stopwatch someone start and stop. This shows that in that two-month window, 800 people hours were saved. What's the cost of capital if it's $15 or $30 an hour, times that by 800 hours that's a lot of time-savings?
The key is you're able to use those hours into higher value stuff. You're not paying to reply to a bunch of emails, you're having them talk to engaged prospects that want to have conversations. As a result, you can pay them more. You're not paying somebody $12 or $15 an hour. You're able to move to a position when you're paying them $30 or $40 an hour.
There has been a fear of, “What happens to my resources? I want to maintain my department.” If we all focus on the economic value that we're creating as a business, we shouldn't be siloed. We need to focus on what's the revenue increase. What's the value that the business creates in the marketplace and will there be rearrangement of hourly employees? They might move, but the people that are on the $12 to $15 an hour job don't necessarily love that job. They'd be happy to move to higher value work, be trained up and I suspect when you deploy this, you didn't have to let anyone go. You let them do other things that were more interesting and more valuable to the business.
They have way more satisfaction with the conversations they are having than having to email a bunch of females and not get any responses. It's such a depressing thing to do and not everybody is cut out for that.
The last question for you is that there have been a lot of technologies, like sales engagement software where you can buy, “Here's $100,000 a month product. Let's give it to everybody and they can pull the knobs and levers.” What I'm feeling when you have people like me, Nick and a team of sales and marketing ops in the Cloud, where we can bring the data, the digital, the dials, every single aspect of the deployment of this high velocity, do you think there's going to be a move from buying $100,000 license and doing it yourself to, “It's gotten sophisticated that I'd rather outsource some of this work to a done for you model.” What are your thoughts on that? Do you think companies will still maintain and run it internally?
Having you on board has been a huge form for us because you add much more value than giving a piece of technology. The tech stack and Nick seen the whole diagram, but the number of technology pieces and I would be exaggerating if I said there are 100,000 SaaS tools out there. You got like, “Want to send email?” You’ve got 10,000 SaaS tools, “Want to do chat?” You have 5,000 chatbots and chat this and that they all have. It's different on a little twist and flavor to it. There are many SaaS tools. By working with somebody like you, the advantage has been, you're working with the best of the breed. You have somebody that cuts through all that noise and say, “Here's something we have tried, tested and we are giving you a solution, not another piece of technology that you're going to use for a month and drop and not giving you the results you're looking for.” Companies that are trying to buy it themselves, they're trying to buy revenue and they don't buy revenue by having another $100,000 a month piece of SaaS tool.
When one technology sunsets, the beautiful thing of not working with an OEM provider is, think about great tools. Yes for ToutApp. ToutApp was bought by Marketo which was bought by Adobe. That tool is now part of a bigger solution and there were SalesLoft and Outreach. At some point, those technologies will become the tenure outdated technology. My view of ScaleX is that we are not tethered to one technology or the other, we're much a value-added reseller with hardware. Only, we do it in a software fashion.
As technologies become interesting for the long haul, we'll certainly bring them into the ScaleX fold, purchase, acquire and roll them up. I can also Test and try new things. With that in mind, if there's a tool we wanted to leave you with to check out, because I know you like to tinker with new things, I have a tool which I suspect you've never heard of it. It's called Hyperise.io. Imagine a world when if I come to MaxSold website and it says, “Welcome to the site. ScaleX is kicking butt out there. Congratulations.” Maybe YouTube videos, plane and somebody's holding an image. It's got me on the image in the YouTube video. Imagine an email that gets sent out a social connection, total personalization at scale for $99 a month. I suspect that will give you another 2% to 3% conversion rating.
I want to leave you with the benefit of having somebody like you is not only are you calling the thousands of tools out there, but you're also being that strategic consultant. If something isn't working, you're like, “Have you thought of this?” The soft commitment thing was totally your idea. You're like, “Here's the problem that we have. We are getting all appointments being booked,” but none of these are resulting in sales. You're like, “Can I talk to your sales guy? Let me give him some coaching. Here are the other things he could do.” That to us is extremely valuable.
I would say $1 million valuable because it sounds like you've got a soft commitment for $1 million deal with $4 million upsize. I only charged 5% commission on those $1 million. It's been a pleasure talking with you, Sushee and Nick. I'm glad you've joined the business. We've got a big thing to deliver for companies like MaxSold, and we appreciate your business, Sushee. I wish you the best of luck as the economy gets back online. If you're reading this and you need to do a move, the biggest value proposition for MaxSold, if you're not aware, let's say you're moving from a 4,000 square foot house. You, your parents, friends, neighbors, and you're downsizing to a 1,000 square foot house, how are you going to sell all this stuff that's inside of your house?
MaxSold can come to your house inventory every single item in your house, down to the vitamin water. Literally, the cleaning supplies under your sink, they can inventory and they can help you move within days instead of weeks so that you can sell your house more effectively and maximize the value of everything. If you have people that are retiring, moving to a smaller house, you're selling, you're moving to the mountains. I suspect there's going to be a lot of changes in the world post-COVID where people say, “I want to move to Montana. I want to move down to Belize.” MaxSold is the company that can help you do that at an effective way.
From the sponge under the sink to the Ferrari in the driveway, we sell it all in two weeks.
Everybody, it's been great to have you on the show. Sushee, thank you for your time. Nick, great to see you. We are out.
About Sushee Perumal
As CEO of MaxSold since it’s inception, Sushee created a unique marketplace in the re-commerce space employing over 500 employees across the US and Canada. MaxSold's processes are built to scale globally to serve those downsizing, settling an estate or clearing a business reliably, efficiently and safely.
#233 on Financial Times fastest growing companies in Americas’ list (2020), twice in Growth 500 (2018 and 2019) and Globe & Mail Top 400 (2019)
Year in Review: https://maxsold.com/maxsold-year-in-review-2019/
Sushee's passion is to deliver double to triple digit year-over-year sales growth for start-ups and mid-sized companies. Sushee does this through relentless focus and execution discipline in applying lean start-up principles, growth hacking, innovating, disrupting, reading, listening, connecting and helping others succeed.
Before joining MaxSold, Sushee executed the development and implementation of projects that involve innovation in use today spanning multiple time zones impacting 8000+ employees at Bell Canada, AmEx and Dell.
Sushee is a pilot with a Commercial and Instrument rating and holds a Masters in Business Administration from the Queen's University and a degree in Electrical & Computer Engineering from McMaster University.
Sushee is an active consultant to corporations and startups in the area of Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and a mentor to many entrepreneurs. His interests include running, golf and getting around by piloting an airplane.
Specialties: Startup consulting, Growth Hacking, Marketing Automation (Marketo, Hubspot, Ontraport), Lean Startup, Cost Benefit Analysis, Inbound Marketing Strategy and Roadmap Dev, Campaign Structure Design, Sales Operations, Outbound Sales Team Development, Project Management, Business Requirements, AI, Data Mining, Machine Learning, RPA (Robotic Process Automation), Campaign/Offer Management, Proof of Concept.
About Nick Cavuoto
Since his early twenties, Nick has been serving alongside Fortune 500 executives and decision-makers of multi-billion dollar brands like Microsoft, Paychex and Pandora. Today, he turns experts into thought leads and mentor entrepreneurs how to leverage their personal brand to dominate the “attention currency” of their audience.
His work has helped hundreds of entrepreneurs earn over 1 billion digital impressions online, 250,000+ leads, and $50+ million dollars in revenue. You’ll find his work featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur Magazine, and Gary Vaynerchuk’s blog.